Monday

THE HYPOCRISY OF CLERGY: A CASE STUDY ON ROWLAND CROUCHER Part 2





"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."- Mahatma Gandhi.



For every complaint received the average company in fact has 26 customers with similar complaints, 6 of which are serious problems. Of the customers who register a complaint as many as 70% will do business again with your business if the complaint is effectively resolved. That figure goes up to a staggering 95% if the customer feels that their complaint was resolved quickly.



It costs 6 times as much to attract a new customer as it does to keep an existing customer.

1 complaining customer & 26 other dissatisfied customers = 27 unhappy customers

27 complaining customers will each tell up to 20 others = 540 people may have heard complaints about your company.

(Source: AussieHost)



The end of my friendship with Rowland Croucher came when he wanted to censor what I was saying on his Facebook page. In particular any criticism I made of the abuse I was receiving was considered naughty. Here are the emails that took place behind the scenes once I complained about the repeated abuse. He basically shoots the messenger ..... How very Christian! ..............


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Mark Tindall 21 March at 12:36 See the thread http://www.facebook.com/rowland.croucher/posts/118374234906587
which is great example of intolerant hate speech.




Rowland Croucher 21 March at 15:35

...Mark: you're the main offender. I note quite a few people leave the discussion when you bombard it with many heated responses...
You're testing my patience: please soften up...




Rowland Croucher 21 March at 15:52
Mark: I'm not defriending you (yet). I value our friendship...

But please get some help

I've admired your quest for rationality: but there's an irrational streak in your current behaviour.

Are you currently seeing a psychiatrist - a good one?

Mark Tindall 21 March at 16:33 There is absolutely no irrationality in my decision to finally deconvert from Christianity. It is extremely well thought through over a period of years. I am not finished with God but I am definitely finished with Christianity and the church.

My psychiatrist's fellow psychiatrist (and friend) is an ex-Christian who has been through the same living hell as I have been through in church and with fundamentalist Christians. My psychiatrist appludes my stance as an Exiled Believer. Ironic (not irenic) how my PSTD was partially caused by Christians. I will be mentioning that in my deconversion blog.

Post some material about how a Christian for 39 years finally deconverted because of repeated abuse by intolerant hate-filled fundamentalist Christians on your thread about "loving words". I dare you. Do an exit interview with me and post it in full (uncensored) on your blog on why I left Christianity. I dare you. I will certainly be doing so.

I am not the perpetrator, I am the victim of this repeated abuse. You would realise this if you had bothered to read all the posts. I asked you for help and you gave none. I am greatly disappointed that you feel fit to re-crucify the victim. This is a nauseous trait I find repeatedly in pastors. How very Christian of you!

I don't need your prayers because they don't work. What I needed as a PTSD sufferer was loving action against repeated abuse but you never gave it.

On Judgement Day my conscience will be clear. I gave Christianity a good shot. No love was forthcoming from Christians. The worship of a human as the infinite One God Yahweh is absolutely repulsive to me. No-one could negate what I had to say regarding Jesus' greatest commandment only referencing Yahweh as in the Shema. The worship of a finite human Jewish peasant - Jesus - is pure idol worship. You can only do it by performing a series of mental gymnastics to make a finite Jesus into the infinite One God Yahweh. I am not prepared to believe such obvious myths. Christians don'[t even know who they should worship and refuse to follow Jesus' two greatest commandments! I am living proof of that.

I will not defriend you (yet). I am open to all views and opinions unlike the "loving" rabid intolerant ignorant fundamentalists in the threads on your post about "loving words". How ironic! (Irenic was never there with my opponents.)



Rowland Croucher 23 March at 11:55 Report
Mark: you've asked if I'll interview you some time.

Here's a deal: can you desist from bagging fundamentalists and anti-Jesus Seminar people, and reiterating your theology of Yahweh for a month, say? ...Then I'll send you a bunch of questions and publish your responses - on my FB page, if you wish.

I'm having to answer too many messages from people who are turned off by your incessant posts on these topics.



Mark Tindall 23 March at 13:01 > can you desist from bagging fundamentalists and anti-Jesus
> Seminar people, and reiterating your theology of Yahweh for a
> month, say?

Can you publically answer the charge that Christians don't worship Yahweh as clearly instructed by Jesus in his greatest commandment referencing the Jewish Shema by proving that Jesus of Nazareth brought the people of Israel out of Egypt in time / space history despite no Jew ever of the time ever knowing him? Please provide bible verses from the Old Testment that mention Jesus by name as the person who did this action. Please also tell me why no-one should speak out about this idol worship which contradicts Jesus' clear commandment. I thought Jesus' greatest commandment was actually the greatest commandment but no Christian seems to want to follow it. No wonder I left Christianity! I was confronted about this by a Jewish friend who converted from Christianity to Judaism. (His mother is Jewish and his father is a Christian.) He was absolutely correct.

Can you quit condoning the hatred of intolerant fundamentalist Christians?

Can you quit re-victimising the victim?

Can you guarantee that the intolerant hate-filled fundamentalists in any discusion will desist from bagging non-fundamentalists and Jesus Seminar people, and reiterating their theology of worship of a dead Jewish peasant as God for a month, say?

You answer my questions and then I'll answer yours.

> I'm having to answer too many messages from people who are
> turned off by your incessant posts on these topics.

I am receiving posts congratulating me for my stance, thanking me for finally standing up to such hate-filled bastards and bagging fundamentalism (not the fundamentalists themselves), thanking me for what I have stated and how much they have learnt from it and pleading for me to continue. I guess we have different audiences.

> But it's *my* Facebook page

I also have Facebook page where a friend thinks that I am the perpetrator of all this abuse and this has been posted to my Facebook page as a personal insult. This is what prompted me to finally realise what a religion of intolerant hatred Christianity really is. All the talk about love is absolute bullshit. Have you not read the words of Lawrence Meckan? I also have a blog where I will tell my story whether or not you interview me at all. Neither of my two places are censored. As I have repeatedly, Christians DON'T want to know why the people missing from their pews have left and they DON'T want to do anything about it. They blame the people that have left rather than looking at bloody great big piece of timber in their own eye. My Customer Satisfaction statistics say it all. My view represents at least 540 people who Christians totally ignore. Many more people will hear about my deconversion brought about by Christian intolerance and hatred. Christian fundamentalists are just as evil as Moselm fundamentalists - they just kill and maim in different ways. Moslem moderates don't speak out against their fundamentalist thugs and moderate Christians do not speak out about their fundamentalist thugs. Don't criticise Moslem terrorists if you don't have the guts to speak out about your own Christian terrorists.



Mark Tindall 10 April at 18:34 http://www.facebook.com/rowland.croucher/posts/10150144988886020

The topic is AGAIN changed to personal insults about myself. You wonder why I left Christianity. "You will know them by their fruit." See how the...se Christians treat anyone who disagrees with them.




Rowland Croucher 10 April at 19:29 Report
Mark: the three of you are guilty... so I've deleted the offending posts...

And let me encourage you again to widen your contributions - beyond invective against orthodox Christianity. It's become 'ad nauseum' / cracked record ... But yes, those two conservatives were 'in your face' -




Mark Tindall 10 April at 20:06
What it absolutely demonstrates is the intense hatred of Chrisitians whenever their pet heresies and man-made dogmas are questioned. If they can't beat the people by valid agument they berate them with insults ... and it still continues. I was never guilty of anything at all except honesty. I defended myself. Your observations are quite faulty. I see hypocrisy at every point in your decisions. The insult aimed at me about "rectal thermometers" is still there as well as "your inventive diatribe ...your self-deception". Perhaps you think these are Christ-like words. Please tell me again why I should put up with such repeated insults ad nauseum without any defense and the repeated changing of the topic to ME. Maybe you should delete all material that is not on the topic. That would ensure that no repeated insults would be hurled at me every time I post without excpetion by the loving "true Christians" / fundamentalist terrorists / "conservatives" that you harbour and protect.



Mark Tindall 10 April at 20:41

Again my interview on your site is quoted in this same thread and again mutltiple insults. I told you to delete ALL my material on your site. I am not joking. Delete them all or face multiple complaints to you...r ISP for using my material without my permission. Link again http://www.facebook.com/rowland.croucher/posts/10150144988886020
SUCH TRUE CHRISTIAN LOVE!!!!!!

Mark Tindall 11 April at 16:37 http://www.facebook.com/rowland.croucher/posts/10150144988886020

Now the same rabid foaming-at-the- mouth fundamentalist ratbags are seeking to ban and censor me on the same thread. Apparently free speech and the right to one's own opinion is not in the evangelical / fundamentalist vocabulary. James Barr is absolutely correct. Fundamentalist DO want to cernsor all opinion contrary to their own

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from Franky Schaeffer "Sham Pearls For Real Swine" ( Wolgemuth & Hyatt; Brentwood:1990)

In our times, various ideologically dedicated groups increasingly use
censorship, coercion, or propaganda to limit access to ideas, literature, and the arts that they consider threatening. p.74

Censorship, the twin brother of propaganda, is the tool of despots, of idealogues, of ayatollahs, of fanatics. p.96

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Mark Tindall 11 April at 23:14 > There's the interview one which was mentioned by one of your
> antagonists - happy to remove that
> Most of the others are quotes with an acknowledgement of y9ou
> as the source - happy to remove your name, i...f you want me to

Remove every single mention of my name without exception. I no longer want to be associated in any way with the pure HATRED that is Christianity.

> I think it might be better for you to use your own FB site for
> interactions with others, but will pray about this tonight and be in
> touch tomorrow...

It will not matter. You have already made up your mind. Jesus will tell you nothing ... Jesus can't because he is a dead Jewish peasant. Rather than helping the victim of this Christian hatred directed solely at me but repeated posts of Peter Johnson and Robert Griffith you will revictimise the victim and blame the victim of heir intense hatred. You have done so before. It is the hypocrisy I have come to know in Christianity. You want CENSORSHIP and BANNING. Your true fundamentalist colours are showing. You are a hypocritical coward too scared to make a decision for true discussion. You are more interested in popularity and appeasing your fundamentalist terrorists than in true discussion. You have to make up your mind if you want your comments discussed or you just want approval by fundamentalists. Your Yes-men will not help you or anyone else grow. Don't think I won't be speaking about this uncensored on my FB page and blog. Truly disappointed in your past behaviour ... no, sorry, not dispapointed, absolutely disgusted with your past behaviour. No integrity whatsoever. You obviously are blind to it. I did expect better from you at one stage. Not any more. Your "ministry" does not "minister" to me. Your "ministry" helped me become a nonChristian. Think about it. My deconversion happened on your thread where you let Christian fundamentalist hatred run free - and then blamed me, the victim of their abuse, for the abuse that I received. You obviously didn't read ALL the posts otherwise you would have clearkly seen, as is the case now, that i was abused several times before I responded! Some "ministry"!!!!



Rowland Croucher 12 April at 09:11

RC: No, I hadn't made up my mind until your statement just now...

I had several emails about all this waiting for me this morning from various people, but I'm not going to allow them to influence me... The t...wo 'fundamentalists' you mention have copped a serve from me by email for their attitude (stronger than mine to you)... If they're going to post on my FB wall they must respect the host's wishes: common courtesy I would have thought.

....

I'll respect your request and do my best to remove your name from my website, and have cancelled several appointments today to do that. I'll also 'defriend' you from my FB friends' list as of now...

> RC: I take it then that you don't want to participate in the discussions on Christianity on my FB page. I'll respect that.

I have never stated that. You have returned to your fundamentalist roots and applied CENSORSHIP and BANNING rather than FREE DISCUSSION. It is the usual hypocrisy of all clergy.

> No, I hadn't made up my mind until your statement just now...

Nonsense. You made up your mind yesterday. Don't be a hypocrite.

I bet that you DIDN'T read ALL the posts in the thread as I requested. You wouldn't want to see the trend that happened on EVERY post I made with the HATE-FILLED FUNDAMENTALISTS that YOU harbour.

> The two 'fundamentalists' you mention have copped a serve from > me by email for their attitude (stronger than mine to you)

So are THEY also DEFRIENDED??????????????????????????

> I'll respect your request and do my best to remove your name from my website, and have cancelled several appointments today to do that.

I demanded that you do that weeks ago. You were not listening as usual.

> I'll also 'defriend' you from my FB friends' list as of now...

How very Christian of you! Typical of your hypocritical fundamentalist mindest. You DON'T want discussions. You want Yes-men. Be honest and truthful. You have again REVICTIMISED THE VICTIM and BLAMED THE VICTIM. You will probaley say some pious words about your hypocrisy but it is still hypocrisy and I will speak gladly against you on the day of Judgement with an absolutely clear conscience.


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I am currently recording my next song. It is called "Hypocrite" and will be dedicated to Rowland Croucher.

THE HYPOCRISY OF CLERGY: A CASE STUDY ON ROWLAND CROUCHER Part 1





Here is the preface to Rowland Croucher's site ....


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JOHN MARK MINISTRIES is a counseling, consulting, preaching, mentoring, seminar and writing ministry, especially for pastors, ex-pastors, church leaders and their spouses. Named after John Mark, the young first century apostle who 'bombed out' of ministry when it was hard, we try to help/encourage pastoral leaders - and others - who are also 'in transition' due to stress and burnout. (Rev. Dr.) Rowland Croucher from http://jmm.aaa.net.au/


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This thread is a critique of his "ministry".


I first came across Rowland Croucher when I had undiagnosed and untreated Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in the mid 1990s that was partly caused by Christians. A friend, also suffering from depression, had seen Rowland's site and as we were both Christians at the time thought that we could get some help. I phoned him up. There was a price for his "ministry"- thousands of dollars for a few days. Completely out of the question. That should have rung alarm bells. I often asked him how much Jesus was paid for the Sermon on the Mount. No reply - ever. He didn't get it. He did get many speaking engagements. Speaking engagements at Christian seminars and other churches is how clergy double their money - they get their regular stipend then a "love gift" of lots of dollar$ to speak elsewhere. When I used to question him about this and his tax free status as clergy he stopped posting about them.


As he was "ministering" on usenet, I joined his usenet discussions. He asked me if I would like to do a free counselling session on usenet by answering some questions. I was desparate for any help at the time and foolishly allowed this to happen. It was then quoted over the next 15 years by any Christian fundamentalist that had a grudge against me. I should have refused to answer any of the questions but PTSD makes you extremely desperate for help and open to abuse by clergy as in this case. Rowland had addded at the beginning of the post "There are some limitations in doing this on-line, as occasionally one’s ‘confession’ is used as a weapon later, by people who haven’t (in my opinion) dealt with their ‘stuff’..." Obviously my Fundamentalist critics never read that part. Though I asked several times later in our relationship for Rowland to remove the page on his website he never did till he finally defriended me on Facebook for daring to have my own opinion and expressing it. (More about that in detail later.)



These are the questions he asked me to answer for all the world to see ....


1. Do a time-line of your life, noting ‘highs’ and ‘lows’ (however you like to define them). Graph the highest and lowest and put rough dates against these, noting your feelings then and now about these events/experiences. Why were/are they significant? H = High, L=Low, HHH = Highest, *LLL = Lowest (shared)


2. On separate pages, write the following headings and make some > notes on your experiences in each: Anxiety/Fear, Sadness/Grief, Guilt (bad things I have done)/Shame (bad things I feel about me), Irritation/Anger.


3. What problems/challenges do each of the ‘seven deadly sins’ hold for you? (Sloth, Lust, Anger, Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Greed). What are your ‘addictions’?


4. We each have a ‘shadow’ side (Jung). What is yours? Where are your areas of incompleteness? For what non-altruistic reasons are you in ministry or doing good?


5. Of the three great temptations – money, sex, power – where are you weakest? Why? What are you tempted to do/be/think if you were sure > you wouldn’t be found out in this life?


Just think about this for a minute. All your deepest darkest secrets posted so the whole world knows about it. What type of "ministry" and "counselling" is this? It is indeed extremely cultish and controlling and misguided. Totally unethical. It is a form of abuse. Then the revelation came later on that Rowland Croucher is NOT a qualified clinical psychologist at all. We discussed items on usenet and I met him in person once. As usual, I was on a journey in life and he love bombed me. I received free tapes and books in the mail all from Rowland's favourite conservative Christian authors. Rowland suggested I read a few different authors. The only one of any value was John A T Robinson's "Honest to God". I am sure that Rowland thought that, as a then Christian who didn't attend church, that he was my defacto Pastor. A sheeple for the picking!


As I veered further away from conservative Christianity the love-bombing and the free materials stopped. Rowland loved to use the word "irenic". You had to nice smiley happy happy joy joy to Fundamentalist that repeatedly abused you with multuiple insults and who quoted the above interview ad nauseum. Intolerance of intolerant Christian fundamentalist abuse was naughty in his eyes. Rowland likes to think that conservative and evangelical Christans are not fundamentalist but he is wrong. They all adhere to the Five Fundamentals. If you adhere to the Five Fundamentals then you are a Fundamentalist. Rowland Croucher is a fundamentalist.

BLOOD, GORE & GUTS: Sacrifice in Christianity and Judaism


You have two choices with two dfferent outcomes concerning Jesus.


1. You can believe that Christians following Christianity know more about Judaism than Jews following Judaism and all sacrifices require blood to be spilt. http://bible.org/seriespage/grain-offering-leviticus-21-16-614-18-79-10-1...012-13


OR


2. You can believe that Jews following Judaism know more about Judaism than Christians following Christianity and spilt blood is not necessary for forgiveness. http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm


If you follow 1 then you can keep going on your current path and Jesus was necessary as a human sacrifice to appease himself as God. God loves blood, gore and guts and approves of human sacrifice.


If you follow 2 then a human sacrifice of blood was never required to obtain forgiveness and your views about Jesus need to be changed. God does not approve of human sacrifice and therefore does not approve of Jesus crucifixion as a human sacrifice of blood. "Although animal sacrifice is one means of obtaining forgiveness, there are non-animal offerings as well, and there are other means for obtaining forgiveness that do not involve sacrifices at all."


Who do you think knows more about Judaism - Christians or Jews? I think Jews do.


Then there are these verses that Christians conveniently ignore ...


Then Samuel said: ‘Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.’ - 1 Samuel 15:22


Many, O Lord my God, are Your wonderful works which You have done; and Your thoughts toward us cannot be recounted to You in order; if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered. Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; my ears You have opened; burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. Then I said, ‘Behold, I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart.’ - Psalm 40:5-8


He has not dealt with us according to our sins, nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust. As for man, his days are like grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourishes. For the wind passes over it, and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more. But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children. - Psalm 103:10-17


For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; you do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart – these, O God, You will not despise. - Psalm 51:16-17


To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice. - Proverbs 21:3


What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more; bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and calling of convocation-- I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow. -- Isaiah 1:11-17


For in the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, "Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you." - Jer. 7:22-23


For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. -- Hosea 6:6


I hate, I despise your festivals, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the offerings of well-being of your fatted animals I will not look upon. Take away from me the noise of your songs; I will not listen to the melody of your harps. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream. -- Amos 5:21-24


Hear what the LORD says: Rise, plead your case before the mountains, and let the hills hear your voice. Hear, you mountains, the controversy of the LORD, and you enduring foundations of the earth; for the LORD has a controversy with his people, and he will contend with Israel. "O my people, what have I done to you? In what have I wearied you? Answer me! For I brought you up from the land of Egypt, and redeemed you from the house of slavery; and I sent before you Moses, Aaron, and Miriam. "With what shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?" He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? -- Micah 6:1-4, 6-8


[Jesus said,] "Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners." -- Matthew 9:13


[Jesus said,] "But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless." -- Matthew 12:7


If Jesus desires mercy and not sacrifice then why do Christans desire the sacrifice of Jesus and not mercy? Are Christians really following Jesus in doing so?